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	<title>Comments on: Health: Part 2</title>
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		<title>By: Pat</title>
		<link>http://www.natarem.com/2009/10/26/health-part-2/comment-page-1/#comment-9634</link>
		<dc:creator>Pat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 Oct 2009 16:44:31 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Animal products contain cholesterol but the consensus is that saturated fat content a much bigger factor in raising cholesterol levels than the cholesterol content itself. Eggs in particular were demonified due to their very high cholesterol content. With regards to the Ornish diet, the correlation is that the Ornish diet is &#039;low-cholesterol&#039; because it&#039;s low-fat, not because of low cholesterol content.

Regarding the link between the consumption of saturated fat and raised cholesterol levels, Arch sites a couple of good examples. Both the Masai and the Inuit studies seem to contravene the consensus as they both sustained &#039;good&#039; cholesterol levels on a very high saturated-fat diet. The second Masai study doesn&#039;t disprove this. The high-fat Masai diet was consumed from the early teens onwards and resulted in remarkably low blood cholesterol levels, according to either study. Furthermore, prior to the age 40 mark, the researchers found no evidence of any significant fibrosis. What they found was a massive increase in the frequency if fibrosis from the ages 40+ (although notably no coincident increase in infarctions). It seems that other factors are coming into play.

&#039;The most striking thing about the Masai data is the extent of arterial lesions in a population with consistently low levels of cholesteremia.&#039;
G Mann, author of the second Masai study (http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/95/1/26)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Animal products contain cholesterol but the consensus is that saturated fat content a much bigger factor in raising cholesterol levels than the cholesterol content itself. Eggs in particular were demonified due to their very high cholesterol content. With regards to the Ornish diet, the correlation is that the Ornish diet is &#8216;low-cholesterol&#8217; because it&#8217;s low-fat, not because of low cholesterol content.</p>
<p>Regarding the link between the consumption of saturated fat and raised cholesterol levels, Arch sites a couple of good examples. Both the Masai and the Inuit studies seem to contravene the consensus as they both sustained &#8216;good&#8217; cholesterol levels on a very high saturated-fat diet. The second Masai study doesn&#8217;t disprove this. The high-fat Masai diet was consumed from the early teens onwards and resulted in remarkably low blood cholesterol levels, according to either study. Furthermore, prior to the age 40 mark, the researchers found no evidence of any significant fibrosis. What they found was a massive increase in the frequency if fibrosis from the ages 40+ (although notably no coincident increase in infarctions). It seems that other factors are coming into play.</p>
<p>&#8216;The most striking thing about the Masai data is the extent of arterial lesions in a population with consistently low levels of cholesteremia.&#8217;<br />
G Mann, author of the second Masai study (<a href="http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/95/1/26" rel="nofollow">http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/95/1/26</a>)</p>
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		<title>By: Arch</title>
		<link>http://www.natarem.com/2009/10/26/health-part-2/comment-page-1/#comment-9633</link>
		<dc:creator>Arch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 Oct 2009 01:15:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.natarem.com/?p=834#comment-9633</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m sure Pat will point to all kinds of sources regularly cited by the Weston Price crowd, and talk about Inuit&#039;s and the famous Masai.  These are extremely weak reference points, with Inuits facing very short lifespans, and Masai showing advanced atherosclerosis in follow-up studies that were even acknowledged by the young writer of the oft quoted cholesterol and health critique.  Why anyone would base their diet on these two groups, or even any country in the Med, when you could pick a group like the Okinawans instead is beyond me.  Where else would you pick the fourth place finisher and say &quot;I want to eat like that guy!&quot;  The diet Campbell advocates is essentially an Okinawan diet minus a little fish.

And as far as blood cholesterol levels and diet go, unfortunately the studies that are out there all measure the differences between diets with a lot of cholesterol and diets with a little less.  It&#039;s only when you take out &quot;all&quot; dietary cholesterol that you see the real differences.  The changes that people see on Ornish and other no cholesterol diets are dramatic compared with any other diet or drug.  Mine dropped 50% after two months and has stayed there for 2 years.  The problem with most studies is that it&#039;s like they are looking at people who smoke 5 packs vs. 2 packs of cigarettes a day.  Of course there&#039;s little difference in effect because 2 is already enough to do you in.  Like cigarettes, It&#039;s probably that it&#039;s that first little bit of cholesterol that hurts you the most.  Piling it on doesn&#039;t make it all that much worse, hence all this stuff about how dietary cholesterol doesn&#039;t affect your blood cholesterol levels.  Find just about anyone who has cut all cholesterol (and all oil for that matter since it raises cholesterol too) and you&#039;ll see some dramatic drops in cholesterol that defy that logic.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m sure Pat will point to all kinds of sources regularly cited by the Weston Price crowd, and talk about Inuit&#8217;s and the famous Masai.  These are extremely weak reference points, with Inuits facing very short lifespans, and Masai showing advanced atherosclerosis in follow-up studies that were even acknowledged by the young writer of the oft quoted cholesterol and health critique.  Why anyone would base their diet on these two groups, or even any country in the Med, when you could pick a group like the Okinawans instead is beyond me.  Where else would you pick the fourth place finisher and say &#8220;I want to eat like that guy!&#8221;  The diet Campbell advocates is essentially an Okinawan diet minus a little fish.</p>
<p>And as far as blood cholesterol levels and diet go, unfortunately the studies that are out there all measure the differences between diets with a lot of cholesterol and diets with a little less.  It&#8217;s only when you take out &#8220;all&#8221; dietary cholesterol that you see the real differences.  The changes that people see on Ornish and other no cholesterol diets are dramatic compared with any other diet or drug.  Mine dropped 50% after two months and has stayed there for 2 years.  The problem with most studies is that it&#8217;s like they are looking at people who smoke 5 packs vs. 2 packs of cigarettes a day.  Of course there&#8217;s little difference in effect because 2 is already enough to do you in.  Like cigarettes, It&#8217;s probably that it&#8217;s that first little bit of cholesterol that hurts you the most.  Piling it on doesn&#8217;t make it all that much worse, hence all this stuff about how dietary cholesterol doesn&#8217;t affect your blood cholesterol levels.  Find just about anyone who has cut all cholesterol (and all oil for that matter since it raises cholesterol too) and you&#8217;ll see some dramatic drops in cholesterol that defy that logic.</p>
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		<title>By: Nat</title>
		<link>http://www.natarem.com/2009/10/26/health-part-2/comment-page-1/#comment-9632</link>
		<dc:creator>Nat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Oct 2009 16:33:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.natarem.com/?p=834#comment-9632</guid>
		<description>Pat, I agree that meat in certain quantities is okay.  I haven&#039;t been convinced of the link with animal meat and cancer.

However, I don&#039;t buy the idea that animal-based intake level aren&#039;t tied to blood cholesterol levels.  I must be missing those studies, can you link me to them directly?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pat, I agree that meat in certain quantities is okay.  I haven&#8217;t been convinced of the link with animal meat and cancer.</p>
<p>However, I don&#8217;t buy the idea that animal-based intake level aren&#8217;t tied to blood cholesterol levels.  I must be missing those studies, can you link me to them directly?</p>
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		<title>By: Pat</title>
		<link>http://www.natarem.com/2009/10/26/health-part-2/comment-page-1/#comment-9630</link>
		<dc:creator>Pat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Oct 2009 13:54:53 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>the idea that eggs were bad for you was based on their cholesterol content but the cholesterol connection was erroneous as dietry cholesterol has a limited affect on blood cholesterol levels, compared to other factors.

this refutation of the china study is worth a read:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/China-Study.html

the gary taubes book is excellent aswell; there&#039;s a lot of good material in there even if you go in or come away disagreeing with the conclusions.

personally i don&#039;t subscribe to the idea that animal meat is bad for human health, long term or short term. meat has likely formed the basis of our diet across prehistory as you suggested in your last post and there are good examples of societies that eat lots of meat/fat and have very low levels of heart disease when compared to the current trends.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>the idea that eggs were bad for you was based on their cholesterol content but the cholesterol connection was erroneous as dietry cholesterol has a limited affect on blood cholesterol levels, compared to other factors.</p>
<p>this refutation of the china study is worth a read:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/China-Study.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/China-Study.html</a></p>
<p>the gary taubes book is excellent aswell; there&#8217;s a lot of good material in there even if you go in or come away disagreeing with the conclusions.</p>
<p>personally i don&#8217;t subscribe to the idea that animal meat is bad for human health, long term or short term. meat has likely formed the basis of our diet across prehistory as you suggested in your last post and there are good examples of societies that eat lots of meat/fat and have very low levels of heart disease when compared to the current trends.</p>
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		<title>By: Tonio K.</title>
		<link>http://www.natarem.com/2009/10/26/health-part-2/comment-page-1/#comment-9629</link>
		<dc:creator>Tonio K.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Oct 2009 05:39:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.natarem.com/?p=834#comment-9629</guid>
		<description>&quot;Obviously milk was an advantage for survival at a certain period in time due to the high caloric and fat content but that doesn’t mean it’s needed or ideal for any human at this time.&quot;

Dude, it&#039;s as if sharks got civilized one day and determined sipping kelp juice was actually healthier for them. Mother nature gave them those teeth for a reason. I have lactase digesting genes. Sometimes you gotta dance with the one that brung ya.

Just kidding. I hate milk.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Obviously milk was an advantage for survival at a certain period in time due to the high caloric and fat content but that doesn’t mean it’s needed or ideal for any human at this time.&#8221;</p>
<p>Dude, it&#8217;s as if sharks got civilized one day and determined sipping kelp juice was actually healthier for them. Mother nature gave them those teeth for a reason. I have lactase digesting genes. Sometimes you gotta dance with the one that brung ya.</p>
<p>Just kidding. I hate milk.</p>
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